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Rigid R2400 Laminate Trimmer (Router)

Discussion in 'Phlatprinter 3 Attachments' started by SlowBipe, Feb 2, 2011.

  1. SlowBipe

    SlowBipe Member

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    I decided to mount a big boy to my phlatprinter. I am planning to kit the GiantBipe and thought I would need a little more power and speed. I also just like the idea of having my motor directly attached to my bit.

    I stopped off at Home Depot last week to check out the Bosch Colt. While there I kept admiring the Rigid product that is similar. What I liked about the Rigid is that it had a straight mounting bore all the way down from very near the top right down to where the shaft comes out of the motor. This makes for a very easy mount to the gantry, with easy remove of the tool if you want to.

    It was rated at 6 amps power with a variable speed between 20,000 and 30,000 rpm. This is more power than the Colt has. It is also a lit bit lighter and less bulky.

    I then noticed that the product on the shelves was a R2401 which is a new model. The new model would be much harder to mount due to all of the plastic that they added to the router. I talked with a Home Depot employee and convinced them to sell me their display for 1/2 price. They said yes too easy, which means I probably left money on the table.

    Here is the model I bought: http://www.finewoodworking.com/ToolGuide/ToolGuideProduct.aspx?id=25526

    I also went on to http://www.precisebits.com and ordered their Bosch Colt precision arbor and nut kit. I just got the .0006 runout model as I thought this would be way better than the crap arbor that came with the router. This gave me a 1/8" arbor, a 1/4" arbor, the nut and wrench to go with it. I received those in the mail last night and am very impressed with the quality. I used my harbor freight motor to cut out the parts for mounting the new cool tool to the Phlatty. I used 1/4 mdf for the mount and burned through quite a few tries before I got it right. With a little help from my 20 year old dremel, I was able to finally get it mounted. With the new arbor, the new router, a new 1/8" x 1 1/8" bit, I was able to burn through 1" DOW foam last night at 50 inches per minute in a single pass like it was butter. Fanfold cut great at 120 inches per minute using the 1/8" Diamond Cut Bit.

    I also made some changes to my vacuum in my mount that I think works better than the standard. The problem with the standard mount is that a shop vac needs airflow. The standard mount doesn't get that. Mine increases the volume of air and sucks from the side. I know I could still design a much better one, and probably will when I get time to build a new mount. I'll try to get some pictures posted as soon as I can, and will eventually get the sketchup and cnc files posted. I need to do some work on them still as they were not perfect. I used the 1/8" diamond cut bit to cut out the mount after I broke both of my 1/16" diamond cut bits by doing stupid things. One of the problems I had was the chuck falling out of the flex tool while I was cutting the wood.

    The only problem I have had is with the z axis since mounting the new router. It seems there is a limit to how fast the stepping motor can accelerate and decelerate 3 lbs of tool. On one of my cuts, I had the feed speed override on at 90 inches per minute. I didn't realize that it was also overriding my z axis speed. Before the cut file was finished my z axis had dropped down by almost 3/8 inch. The mount was riding on the pressure bars when I stopped the cut. I think this is because the stepper motor missed some steps in raising the z during the cut. I tried lowering the acceleration settings on the z axis, but don't really understand what the numbers in this field mean. The value in Marks default settings file were 40. I set mine at 20 for the z.

    I would really like to find a different set of pulley's that would lower my belt pulley ratio on the z axis to about half what it is now. I have tried cuts with a plunge rate of 30 in per minute with no problems in the Z. This rate is probably fine for most things, but for 3d carving, I think I would want it a little faster.

    If anyone is looking for a great upgrade to their phlatprinter and if you can still find one of these Rigid R2400 routers, I am very impressed with the results. It is vibration free, very quiet at 20,000 rpm and not painfully loud at 30,000.

    SlowBipe
     
  2. kram242

    kram242 Administrator Staff Member

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    Sounds like a great projects SB looking forward to the pics :good:
    The Phlatprinter 's Z axis has the pulleys on top to allow you to swap out the Z pulleys with each other to generate more torque on the Z. It will be slower but should handle the weight. I have been trying out the colt and I am not getting any missed steps with the weight of that one, you may want to check your voltage at TP1, you may have room there to add a little more power as well. 2.8 should be max.
    Thanks SB looking forward to the projects you come up with. :look:
    Mark and Trish
     
  3. SlowBipe

    SlowBipe Member

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    Mark,

    My TP1 voltage is set at 2.6. When I swapped out the z pulleys and re-calibrated (15,000) steps per unit, any speed above 30 inches per minute just makes the stepper sing without moving. I don't think it can handle the speeds needed to operate with that very different pulley ratio.

    I learned a little more this morning. Most of my problems with the motor missing steps was happening during the traverse. My system was still set at 300 in per minute. So as soon as it finished a cut and wanted to go to the next section, it would go up at 300 in per minute. Most of this movement just didn't take place. I also tightened up the bearings on the z axis 2 days ago, to get rid of some slop in the head. This along with too tight of a belt on the z seemed to be the greatest contributor to the overworking of the z axis motor and not just the weight of the new router.

    Any way I look at it, I would like to find a little smaller pulley ratio than the one I have now. Do you know the best place to source pulleys of various sizes?

    Is there the possibility that I could replace my stepper motor with a stronger one like Flash did on his X axis and still have it fit into the space in the z gantry?

    I am really loving the machine with the new Rigid router. I cut out a very detailed fuselage out of 1" DOW foam this morning in one pass. It was so awesome to watch it work.

    I am also loving the vacuum attachment that my mount uses. I think it is picking up a much larger portion of the dust than the original. This morning I cut out two 3/4 inch diameter inside cut circle's. The tabs were too small and they popped loose as soon as the cut completed. The vacuum just made a thunk sound and sucked it right up and away. I didn't have to worry about putting tabs on it or having it drop down to get stuck in the rollers. I'll send you some pics of what I did with the vac tonight. The next step to improving vacuum airflow would be to connect up a bigger hose all the way to the head. I don't know if I'll do this as I may be doing okay now without it. When I cut mdf, it picks up everything except what stays in the cuts behind. The rest gets wisked away, and I don't have to have a dust pickup shoe that goes down and covers the bit.

    Another contributing factor to how my vacuum is working might be that the Rigid motor blows it's cooling out the bottom of the router in a full circle around the perimeter. I don't know what effect this has overall, but I know it is working better than I had hoped for when I was making the mount.

    SlowBipe
     
  4. kram242

    kram242 Administrator Staff Member

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    Michael,
    Since you changed the pulley ratios you will also want to change your rapids (travel speed) to a lower number. this will help with the weight of the router on the gantry too.
    I like that idea you have of using the routers air to blow the dust up and allows the vacuum to pull it up. I have been experimenting with the bosh and I am finding that mixing the two together does not work like I have it and I need to change it. Do you have any pics you could post of your setup to give some ideas?
    As for the larger stepper, you could look here http://www.mpja.com/ the site is down right now for maintenance but they have a good stepper on there that's a little over 200oz of holding torque, just remember when searching for steppers you want to look at Nema 23's this will give you the same mounting holes.
    Looking forward to seeing some pics when you find the time.
    Thanks SlowBipe
    Mark and Trish
     
  5. rcav8r

    rcav8r Moderator Staff Member

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    Slowbipe, if you want I can get you the numbers for the Z-axis. I am running my Z pulleys reversed.

    I don't know enough about steppers to really give good advice, but be careful with the really high torque steppers. Like the motors we power our planes with; for a given size, torque goes up, speed goes down.
     
  6. SlowBipe

    SlowBipe Member

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    Here are some pictures that I took of the new mount with the Rigid Laminate Trimmer installed. My son designed and cut out a castle last night for a school project. Everything worked perfect. I am so liking this new power head.

    SlowBipe Attached files [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. kram242

    kram242 Administrator Staff Member

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    Nice! Thanks for sharing these pics :good: I really like the way you have done the vacuum hole and will try it on my Bosch attachment (if its OK with you)
    Here is where we get our pulleys https://sdp-si.com/eStore/ If you want to try some different setups
    MPJA store is back up and here is the motor I was looking for
    http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=18189+MS

    Dave if you could share your settings that would be great!
    One thing I found in the CNCUSB software to make your machine run smoother is to set the look ahead angle to 180 not the default 145. I have been experimenting a lot with the new settings and will post my settings file once complete. I did not have much time to set everything up when the Phlatprinter came out. So I am trying to get this together now.
    Mark and Trish
     
  8. 3DMON

    3DMON Moderator Staff Member

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    Nice router attachment. Was you planing to provide the files for it? I'm sure someone else may find them useful.

    Mark that stepper looks good but it would be too long for the Z axis. I like the looks of that stepper for the X axis though. It has good resistance specs so the speed and torque should be very good.
     
  9. dugd1013

    dugd1013 Member

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    https://sdp-si.com/eStore/

    This is a good site to check out various pulley options. I recently swapped out my X axis stepper pulley for a metal unit from this site. Lots of options, decent prices.
     
  10. kram242

    kram242 Administrator Staff Member

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    I was thinking X too, but you could put it on the Z with screw spacers and flipping the stepper upside down :) It may not look as nice but it should work fine.
    I see a lot of machine use this blocking method to allow for spacing to fit a lovejoy coupler
    Mark and Trish Attached files [​IMG]
     
  11. SlowBipe

    SlowBipe Member

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    I will put the files for the mount up, but haven't had a chance to clean them up yet. The results were far from perfect, but I made it all fit with a little bit of sandpaper.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    SlowBipe
     
  12. SlowBipe

    SlowBipe Member

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    Great idea Mark. I was thinking the same thing about flipping the motor up top to allow a larger motor to be mounted. I think I am working for now by lowering my traverse speed down to 90 ipm. I have to watch and see if i miss any more steps.

    Thanks again for all of the information. I do think I will try to source some different pulleys as this would be the simplest solution and should do the job.

    SlowBipe
     
  13. SlowBipe

    SlowBipe Member

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    Things I have learned:

    The Vacuum solution on my router is working tremendously well. My son and I cut out a big castle out of 1" Blue Foam with a 1/8" bit in a single pass and on the first sheet we had the vacuum on. Everything looked beautiful at about 80" per minute. On the second sheet we forgot to turn on the vacuum and mid way through the sheet the foam started melting to the end and center of the bit causing the cut path to grow exponentially. Removing that extra foam dust as the cut goes along can prevent unwanted catastrophic failure.

    The Vacuum is picking up about 90%. This is easy to see when I go through mdf. Without the vacuum on the dust spreads everywhere including on top of the Phlatprinter. With the vacuum on the only dust remaining is in the cut slots with a little on the pressure rollers.

    I need a stronger stepper motor for my x axis to cut wood materials: I have one on order.

    I love that when I set the speed of the router, that it remains constant and doesn't bog down.

    I like the results of cutting the foam with a fluted router bit.

    I'll try to get the code up here for the mount as well as some video of it cutting.

    SlowBipe
     
  14. rcav8r

    rcav8r Moderator Staff Member

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    Here's my settings for the Z axis with the stock pulleys reversed. Attached files [​IMG]
     
  15. SlowBipe

    SlowBipe Member

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    rcav8r,

    Thanks for the setting on your machine. My z seems to be working a lot better now that I have gotten my traverse rates at a more reasonable speed.

    I ordered a new bigger motor anyway, but not for the z. I need to be able to cut wood material, and I am getting a lot of skipped steps when I get the feed rates up fast enough to prevent burning. I guess that is the hazards of putting a router on there that has a minimum speed of 20,000 rpm.

    Mark,

    Is there anything I need to know when I switch out my x motor to the motor you recommended above? Can my switches stay the same on my EasyCNC board?

    Thanks, SlowBipe
     
  16. kram242

    kram242 Administrator Staff Member

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    I have recently read a very good article on full full stepping with gear reduction vs micro stepping and now I have switched over my X and Z to full steps with my Y on half steps. I am experimenting with these settings and they seem to be doing quite well. You gain more toque (well power anyway) and with a ratio actually have better accuracy. Here is the article for you to read.
    Microstepping Versus Gear Reduction
    http://reviews.ebay.com/Microstepping-V ... 0002352664
    Here is another
    http://micromo.com/microstepping-myths- ... ities.aspx
    Its really a matter of application and I have to say I like it better this way.
    Some board do not allow the switching of the step rate, but the easy-cnc does so we can try it out.
    Hope this helps
    Mark and Trish
     
  17. TigerPilot

    TigerPilot Well-Known Member

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    Mark, did you change the gear ratio when you changed to full step or do you use the same, original, setup?
     
  18. SlowBipe

    SlowBipe Member

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    I am finally uploading the Sketchup file for the Rigid R2400 Laminate Trimmer. It is not without problems. I was really new to the phlatprinter when I drew it and when I built the attachment. Regardless, I was able to make it all fit together with a little bit of filing and sanding.



    Things I would change if I was building again:
    1. The notch is not deep enough for the teeth on the side of the router. Save yourself a lot of filing and draw this deeper before cutting it out.
    2. I would move the notch about 10 degrees more towards the front. As it is, the cord coming off the router will bump into the side of the phlatprinter case before you reach full potential of cutting to the left side. By rotating the router about 10 degrees the cord will clear the case.

    let me know if you have any questions.

    SlowBipe Attached files Rigid Router Attachment-MDF.skp (5.2 MB)Â
     
  19. kram242

    kram242 Administrator Staff Member

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    Nice job on the file SB, I think it turned out nice! :doubleup:
    Thank you for sharing :good:
    Mark and Trish
     
  20. SlowBipe

    SlowBipe Member

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    Now that I have passed the learning curve, and gotten all of the bugs worked out my Phlatprinter is working beautifully. I can cut light ply and birch plywood at amazing speeds. I really love the Rigid router. It works perfectly.

    I think I cut out parts for about 8 hours of machine time last Saturday. I did not encounter any problems at all.

    I love the 1/16 inch end mills from http://www.PreciseBits.com. They really cut cleanly through depron and many types of wood.

    SlowBipe
     
  21. TigerPilot

    TigerPilot Well-Known Member

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    Which ones are you using, SlowBipe, fish-tale or ball-nose, 2 or 3 flute?
     
  22. SlowBipe

    SlowBipe Member

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    You definitely want the fish-tail and not the ball nose. Ball nose would work well for 3d milling a face.

    I like the 2 flutes much better as they have more channel space for removing the foam from the cut.

    SlowBipe
     

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